Veterinarian Lucy Scott - Behaviour Vet - A Member of the Australian and New Zealand College of Veterinary Scientists in Veterinary Behaviour - ep 048

Veterinary Behaviour Veterinarian - Dr Lucy Scott

[00:00:00] Julie South: Welcome to episode 48 of paws, claws, and whipped noses, a veterinary sector podcast, celebrating all creatures great and small, and the fantabulous professionals who look after them all. I'm your show host Julie south. I had a great time chatting with today's guest, registered veterinarian, Dr. Lucy Scott of veterinary behavior services.

[00:00:32] Before I introduce Dr. Lucy to you though, I'd just like to share a few things that have been happening behind the scenes at this stage. The first is that we're getting ready to draw the lunch shout winners, and this year's love your fitness competition. And we've had an absolute ball getting to see what some of God's own art Hera, New Zealand fantabulous fitness has do to keep them all bright eyed and bushy tailed for thank you to every [00:01:00] single contestant we've had a blast.

[00:01:02] And we'll be contacting each collect. That's one, a lunchtime shout from us and this coming week to organize when you'd like your lunch shot. The other thing that's happening is my petition to parliament to help get more vets into New Zealand. You may remember that back in June of this year, immigration New Zealand gave the go ahead for 50 vets to come into New Zealand outside of the former criteria.

[00:01:30] That started everything off at 106,080. Now this new criteria, the one for June is for vets with a minimum of three years experience. Who've got a bonafide job offer of at least 85,000 pounds. And this was great. It's a step in the right direction that helps alleviate the shortages, or it would, if MB would allocate MIQ spaces to make this happen.

[00:01:56] Now I'm not sure about you, but I would have thought that government [00:02:00] departments would all be working towards the same goal. The same thing. That there'd be working in tandem with each other, that they might actually help each other. For example, that the 50 vets immigration New Zealand gave the green light for back in June.

[00:02:16] And at the same time, immigration news. Also gave the green light for 200 farm workers as well there, because the special exception visas had already been allocated for these professionals. Remember their special exception that MB would do it, but to ensure that this part of our economy could progress a bit more than it has, but no.

[00:02:40] MBIE won't pre assign MIQ spaces to special categories like this. We have two government departments working in opposition to. So I'd love you to sign the petition, please. If you're on Facebook, it can be found at get two vets dot indeed. And that's [00:03:00] number two, get two fits, but in Zed or go to tiny url.com forward.

[00:03:08] Get two vets in Zed. Again, that's number two, or you can visit vet staff's website, fit staff, but coder in Ziad and from the whole, the home page scroll all the way to the bottom. There's a link there for that too. So thank you very much. Also thank you for the positive feedback about the last few mindset episodes.

[00:03:29] I'm putting a plan together to include a teeny tiny soundbites snippet in each episode, going forward for you to be able to take away and use in your life from back in my coaching days, I need to work out how to do, how to find a way of including these without cutting short guests, when we have them. So watch this space now talking of guests this week is Dr.

[00:03:52] Lucy Scott. She's from MSCI university science class of 2015. Who's recently [00:04:00] branched out into veterinary behavior work and started her. Veterinary behavior business. Lucy started off and a rural mixed animal practice clinic where she spent six years before pursuing her dream of making a difference in animals lives.

[00:04:17] And of course their owners through behavior modification and train. Lucy uses positive reinforcement training with her own animals and introduced fear-free principles into her former practice this year and 2021, she set her Australian college of veterinary scientists, membership exams, and veterinary behavior, and started her business veterinary behavior services in.

[00:04:45] Bryan Gregor: An old vet told my father when he was a student in Glasgow. He said, if you want to be a success in veterinary practice, just keep the bowels open and just arrested. God. Nutrition's not an opinion. It's a science. They called me [00:05:00] that weird herbal needle that, and I just remember thinking. Well, I'm still going to do it cause I know it works and I've got the research to back it from reminiscences of the real James Harriet son to P nutrition, to acupuncture the podcast, discusses current animal health issues from around the world on veterinarian, Brian greeter from New Zealand, just search for the vet podcast, wherever you get your podcasts from.

[00:05:28] Julie South: Paws Claws Wet Noses is sponsored by vet staff. If you've never heard of VetStaff it's new, Zealand's only full service recruitment agency. 100% dedicated to the veterinary sector fit staff has been around since 2015 and works nationwide from Cape Reinga to the bluff and everywhere in between as well as helping Kiwis fits.

[00:05:52] Also hubs overseas, qualified veterinarians find work and art and New Zealand fit [00:06:00] staff.co dot indeed. As we head into the chat that Lucy and I had, I'll just let you know that as you'll be able to hear from the wobbling and a few places, Lucy and I caught up on zoom. Unfortunately, the. The warbling can't be edited out.

[00:06:20] So I apologize in advance for these. We start the conversation here with me asking Lucy, what was her, her aha moment to start her own veterinary behavior business? 

[00:06:35] Lucy Scott: I didn't really, so there was accumulation of I finished school. I got a horse. I'd started doing some training at, have found some summit go equitation science, which is a.

[00:06:48] Based on learning theory. And from there, I then went to a clinic which was positive reinforcement for horses and met some people there that I still get along with very well. [00:07:00] A lady who does a lot of positive reinforcement with horses, and I just added an added, an added little courses over the time. And I had an idea that I wanted to do remember.

[00:07:12] But I was working full time, mixed practice, not really thinking about anything else that I could do other than I really wanted to do this. And it was really something I was passionate about. But when you're in the rat race, not really thinking about how you would move out of it. And then I got kicked by a cast and got a concussion, and that sent me on my butt for a while.

[00:07:37] And it took me eight months to get back to doing on-call and full-time mixed practice work. And I realized that this was really what I wanted to do full time. And that was really the time to start thinking about what I was really passionate about. Series. 

[00:07:54] Julie South: You mentioned membership. Can you just elaborate a bit on that place [00:08:00] and was there a qualified, so I'm presuming that this says the, the membership you've just been eligible to join.

[00:08:07] What was involved in that. 

[00:08:10] Lucy Scott: So our membership is a joining of a chapter of the Australasia Australia and New Zealand college of veterinary scientists. So this is, um, a college that is based in Australia, but cover and covers many subjects. There's veterinary reproduction, there's radiology, there's medicine of casters surgery and veterinary behavior.

[00:08:36] It was one of the chapters that, the one that I was interested. And so it, the way it works is that there's two, there's three examinations, there's two written examinations and an oral exam that you pass to be to enter into the behavior, the chapter of the membership, it's all self-directed learning. They [00:09:00] give you a list of objectives, of things that you need to know, but essentially.

[00:09:06] You are, self-directed finding those things or they give you a reading list, which is very helpful and a mentor and your mentor gives you a good idea of how much depth of knowledge you need to have gives you some tips and tricks for the oral exam, especially, and this year. On zoom, which was a bit of an experience and meant that we weren't traveling to the gold coast.

[00:09:29] So it was a bit cheaper for me. She's great. So it's very different to many of the other qualifications where you're given a course syllabus or lectures. You know, the, the information you need isn't right there. You have to go out and find it, which, uh, many of us were very concerned about because we were worried that it would be really what we found would be really subjective, that it wouldn't be what was needed, but with the textbooks that they [00:10:00] tell you and the sort of direction they give you it's yeah, it's a really cool experience.

[00:10:06] Actually. I really enjoyed doing. Mike, some very sciency feats regard this as alternative. I'm not sure. I know quite a few scientists, uh, scientists, bets that have gone to do memberships. And I think because the, most of the recommended reading is journals and textbooks. Yeah. It's not as alternative as it could be.

[00:10:33] And then when we get into the chapter, essentially, you have chapter education and there's also science week, which is a conference that the college put on yearly. Very well regarded. Yeah, once you've done a membership, you can then do a fellowship, which is the next step. And that essentially lifts you to specialists status in Australia and New Zealand.

[00:10:56] You can become a specialist in other countries by going do [00:11:00] boards, but fellowship is yeah. Level of specialists in New Zealand. How long did it take you from start to finish? Well, I probably started reading the material two years before. Don't forget how to eight months block. And then I wasn't doing very much study and that finished about, uh, so it was may, and I did my exams the next year in, so it was just over a year and I went to part-time at the beginning of the year and the exam was in June.

[00:11:30] So I covered the material over. A year, I'd say, 

[00:11:36] Julie South: what did you learn? What was a surprise for you?

[00:11:40] Lucy Scott: Well, I liked the fact the veterinary behavior specific one is lots of animals. So it's all companion lab and production animals in New Zealand and Australia. So that meant, I learnt about the behavior of our Packers and birds was a real different one for me because New Zealand [00:12:00] upwards, a big companion animal group, rabbits, Guinea, pigs, rats, poultry.

[00:12:06] I said alpaca, but sheep and cattle dogs, cats, horses. So that was a real big surprise to me that it was so broad, but meant that I knew their normal behaviors of all of those animals, ways that behavior could go awry and the techniques of how to help them with abnormal or even stereotypical, or even pathology, pathologic.

[00:12:33] Behaviors. Yeah. Stereotypical behaviors are usually ones that are actually even harmful can be to animal. Yeah. I heard you. 

[00:12:42] Julie South: You just mentioned dairy cows or, or cows, I think. And I heard yesterday about, I think it's a Kiwi invention, but don't quote me of a herd of 50 cows that have just been trained over [00:13:00] two days to.

[00:13:03] To go to the toilet and a sit area. Have you heard about this? 

[00:13:08] Lucy Scott: A brief thing. I didn't read the article, but it would be doable. Yeah. 

[00:13:12] Julie South: And it was the idea is that you can then kit. The what I would call manure, catch the manure. So it eases runoff. It's about sustainability. It eases or reduces the runoff. And it took, I think, two days for this, this herd of 50 cows to be trained.

[00:13:36] And now they want to extend it to a herd of 1000 cows. 

[00:13:41] Lucy Scott: Yeah, there's some, some really interesting technology coming out with, um, teaching cows. Um, there's a color called Holter, which is a used essentially to on an app. They draw the, the, the break that they want the cows to stay in and they stay within that break.[00:14:00] 

[00:14:00] Because this halter essentially stops them from moving past it and they learn to stay within the lines and they also have a chime and that tells them it's time for milking time. So they offer the trunk to the kid. So you don't have to go and collect them. Cows are extremely clever. And actually some, one of the questions in my exam was I heard a dairy cows struggling to get them into the shed.

[00:14:22] It was a rotary shed, how we had set it up better and train them and utilize the different types of cows in the herd. So that was show count was and heifers and old cows and how we'd utilize the different types of cows to help train them. That was a really cool question. 

[00:14:39] Julie South: Where's your passion, which, which species.

[00:14:43] Lucy Scott: I especially like dogs, cats, and horses. I've mostly working with dogs at the moment because that's the, that seems to be the biggest pool of people that have behavior concerns that want help, would really like to help some horses. And I have had one [00:15:00] consultation with a cat with two cats. It's in a household that we're fighting and I had some really good feedback about how we can set up.

[00:15:07] Those this lady's, her life was essentially changed as okay. Came back and now can be touched and yeah, that's pretty good. I saw talking about kits. There's a, a PO a New Zealand police kit. A cop has, have you seen this on LinkedIn? I seen the video. It's very cute. He's this cop. I trained this case. Yeah, you should meet Jimminy.

[00:15:32] Jimmy. My cat goes into his crate and out of his crate and sits most of the time. I'm trying to teach them to 12. He very happily jumped from one place to another or for a trade. Hey has trained me. I would say two. Offer a, a hand touch. Every time he goes into the garage, because don't really want him in the garage is a pain to get out, but I've offered I've, I've taught him.

[00:15:59] If he touches his [00:16:00] nose to my hand, then I'll go get him a treat. However, I'm pretty sure he's trained to be back because he goes into the garage and then sits there and waits for me. Sometimes they're too clever. But yeah, Geminis pretty cool cat as well. Yeah, the, the police cat was yeah. Oscar. I think his name was, yeah.

[00:16:23] And he even wears his little harness and goes out into the community. Yeah. Uh, listeners, if you haven't caught up with that, I will do my best to transfer the LinkedIn Oscar video back to the show notes for Lucy's show here. Well, so you talked about the, the examination that you had to do because it's different as different to the traditional traditional style of learning.

[00:16:50] Is that because it's self directed? Is that what, what you meant there or is there something else happening as well? No, it was just the [00:17:00] self-directed and also the fact that there isn't really a practical component, so. It's interesting to say, can examine like surgery or they can examine behaviors in a way.

[00:17:13] We, I do practical training every day and that's something that wasn't examined upon. So that's an issue. Component of it. Can you tell me, please and explain also, I mean, most of the listeners to this podcast are that made professionals like yourself, can you, but we can't control who listens. So it might be people like me who don't know the difference between a trainer, a behaviorist, a vet, and a behavior vet.

[00:17:43] Julie South: What, what do they do? 

[00:17:47] Lucy Scott: I would classify myself as a behavior vet, none of veterinary behaviorist. We can't, I can use that title in New Zealand, but in Australia, that's for people who've done a fellowship who are [00:18:00] specialists. So. I classify myself as a behavior vet. It means I've done further examinations in veterinary behavior.

[00:18:09] A trainer is someday that specifically trains behaviors either from scratch or often they retrain behaviors are really common. One is a lot of dogs that pull on leash. A trainer usually can help you retrain that behavior and make it not happen again, you know, and behaviorists. It's a little sticky at the moment.

[00:18:32] We don't have a way to quantify. Uh, behaviorists, the, there are qualifications overseas and there's an online qualification cord through the I, a VC, which is the natural association of animal behavior consultants. Now the national companion animal register have just started putting the. I a, B, [00:19:00] C qualified behaviorists online on their, on their website.

[00:19:04] And we're hoping to put behavior vets like myself up on there too, as ensuring that your behaviorist has a qualification that is internationally recognized would be great. Yeah. He's also certified animal behaviorists, C a B, which by the end of my master's, I should be able to apply for how many. The behavior visits and behavior risks.

[00:19:32] Do you know, are in New Zealand, there are eight people that have done the membership on the eighth. I'm not a hundred percent sure on the behaviorists. I would say there's seven to eight of them as well. 

[00:19:49] Julie South: And as the pathway. Do you have to be a registered veterinarian first? Is that the pathway to what you've just done [00:20:00] for a membership?

[00:20:01] Lucy Scott: Yes. Yeah. So it gives credibility to your profession. How would a vet know what professional to use? I think that actually depends on the behavior. In question, if it was a, my dog does. Doesn't understand the skills that it needs, like healing or doesn't understand its recall than hopefully a trainer would be able to help them with that.

[00:20:34] If we're seeing abnormal behaviors like that are a little bit more complicated. Things like fear and anxiety based aggression, that would be a behaviorist or a behavior vet. The big thing about a behavior event is that we can actually also prescribe and I like to work as part of a team with the GP VAT and trainers as well.

[00:20:58] So I'm the [00:21:00] in-between. Which is quite useful things. And also things like, uh, separation distressed toileting inside is a very common one, especially for cats, but it can also be a sign in dogs of, of separation, anxiety, aggression activity. Those things do need some, either an experienced trainer that has worked with those things before, but ideally a behaviorist or a behavior day.

[00:21:29] Julie South: My sister has this crazy manic dog that we, we joked about as being created, you know, in the family, joked about being crazy manic, but it turns out she has quite a, a problem. And she's been to a colleague of yours in, in Wellington who's diagnosed or prescribed. I think it was the equivalent of Prozac.

[00:21:51] And something else. And she Roxy the dog was on this thing for two, two weeks, [00:22:00] but she was so, so stressed that the behaviorist or behavior fit. I'm not sure whether she's a specialist or not. It was different than Yvette. I thought that F the medication didn't work then euthanasia was. The pathway because she was so, so Minnick, so crazy.

[00:22:25] Lucy Scott: Yeah. Aggression was, was the, the behavior that manifested yeah. And medication. Uh, something that we can add in, which is really useful, especially in those animals that we can use playing behavior modification techniques with. So behavior modification techniques we take, whatever is triggering the behavior and take it far enough away that it is not an issue.

[00:22:58] Um, [00:23:00] up again, slowly, whatever that is, whether it's separation or fear aggression say to strangers and the combination of the two, the drugs, and it is his Prozac is exactly the same drug that we use. Often. There are a couple of types, but fluoxetine Prozac is a very commonly used.

[00:23:24] and the combination of the Turo where we go from there. Yeah. Yeah. She's improved, but yeah, we're still keeping our fingers and toes crossed. W w when should an animal be referred and what's the process from there? So this is lots of little red flags biting growling, um, even, and again, like I said, that things like fear, behaviors, anxiety sort of thing in side issues with being left alone, [00:24:00] conflict behaviors in horses.

[00:24:02] So that means behaviors that are in response to this. Asked to do you cute through a behavior, which is quite common in homelessness is because we use a lot of pressure release, negative reinforcement techniques, and then the. Process from there is that a client gets in contact with me. I usually start with a phone call.

[00:24:26] We do some first aid advice essentially until we can get out there. Management prevention, safety really, really keen on safety, especially with aggression cases. I get out there. And we usually, it's usually a two hour, two to three hour consultation. We sit down, we talk about the history because they will have sent me a full history with the questionnaire as well.

[00:24:51] So I get that history and questionnaire filled in before I get there we go over the history, sort of find the, the, the sticky points, the most [00:25:00] important ones for us to work on. First, we'll discuss. Drugs, if we need to, depending on the case. And then we make a plan going forward of how we're going to manage and prevent the behavior, but also how we're going to work back to.

[00:25:14] And then a new normal. So often I find with these animals, the, their bubble has slowly gotten smaller and smaller and smaller. So like the dog barked at that person that, that gateway that dog on their walk. So they go a different way. And then they go to the skate park and there's a kid that comes past on a skateboard and the dog reacts really badly to the kid on the skateboard.

[00:25:37] So we avoid kids and skateboards. So the idea is, is. Get them back to being may never be a hundred percent comfortable in those situations, but we're working back to finding a compromise in a place that they feel safe and the owners feel safe and comfortable with separation a few times separation anxiety with [00:26:00] COVID lockdown last year, where pits were with their owners, 24, 7 for four weeks.

[00:26:09] And then. They went back to work again. And now we've had another lock down in Oakland set up for much stronger than, than us. Have you noticed an uptake in animals that. Well, I guess we will notice that all Auckland soon that they're fair parents aren't there anymore. Absolutely. Yeah. The us are having a huge, huge issue is dogs that are becoming separation anxious, and it's something that we can, we can prepare our dogs for.

[00:26:44] So some of the tips during lockdown is making sure they have some independent. And time away, actually, if you're okay. As long as anxiety before lockdown lockdowns, one of the best times to work on it, because you're there all the time and you can [00:27:00] build up your departure slowly. The things that we don't think.

[00:27:05] That can cause our dogs to stress. When we were trying to leave, you know, they get used to our patterns. So you pick up the keys and the dog suddenly panting in the corner, anxious, and you get out the door and then, and the dog standing there waiting for you to come back. And we finding that dogs that never showed the signs before, or maybe just show little signs of being anxious, but we're used to being left behind alone.

[00:27:29] I suddenly having much bigger issues, no one after lockdown, because they've gotten used to you being. Yeah, it's just happening a lot more commonly than it used to. A lot of people think, okay, well, my dog's not comfortable being left alone. I'll get a second dog. And that's been a common sort of suggestion that get another dog.

[00:27:49] They'll be fine. They can play together, but it's not always about being isolated. And maybe that the attachment with the human has become quite. As it does there at [00:28:00] dogs are our constant companions man's best friend. And so getting a second dog is not always the answer for some dogs, how helps. And the other thing was great.

[00:28:10] Training has been sort of said that, get our dog used to being in a crate. Then when you leave home, there'll be fine in the crate. Unfortunately, sometimes that can actually make it worse because they panic. And trying to escape the crate. I've had people call me saying my dog's paws were bleeding. Cause they were trying to get out of the crate.

[00:28:30] They were so distressed. I thought that a crate would help that. I thought they would feel safe in the kraut and they did feel safe in the crate until we left them alone in the crate for longer than they could cope with. How about kits had do kits get separations? I much less common later. Their social bonds are as humans.

[00:28:50] Aren't quite as strong as our dogs. And they're usually fairly independent. I know my dog, my cat misses me when I'm gone, because he's [00:29:00] quite clingy when I get home, but they don't tend to show the signs of distress that dogs do. 

[00:29:06] Julie South: That's a special, can you turn a, a, a kit that isn't cuddly into a cuddly cat?

[00:29:15] Lucy Scott: And to an affectionate cat to a point. So the socialization period and cancerous three to seven weeks, which is a lot earlier than our puppies. And that's the time that they get used to being handled in. That does make a significant difference to how much they enjoy and tolerate this well being handled it later on, you can certainly build positive associations with humans.

[00:29:45] I, you know, my cat, I can't pick him. I would not pick him up without being sure that he was comfortable with it. Some cats, you know, pick the Moda, touch the belly, Jimmy would not cope with that at all. [00:30:00] However, he is. Very affectionate and otherwise. And that is through a long history of, of positive interactions with us and positive reinforcement training as well.

[00:30:14] Julie South: Symptoms should a vet or a nurse be looking out for in-clinic that would indicate that your, this patient's next referral. 

[00:30:27] Lucy Scott: It's interesting because there were a lot of anxious and aggressive dogs that would benefit from. Consultation. So to me, and I understand that it's, it's the top 20% of owners probably that that would follow that through.

[00:30:41] So in the vet clinic, I would say 90% of the animals that I see in the vet clinic would show some signs of anxiety or stress, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they need a behavior consultation. It's more red flags from the owner, things [00:31:00] they say that they're struggling with at home. If they come to you and say, they're struggling with leaving their dog alone.

[00:31:06] A change in behavior, uh, like being happy, being handled, and then one day not being comfortable being in handled very often. That's pain-related so that's great. But having a behavior consultation in w in one of those situations, as well as pain relief can be quite useful for the owners to understand the reasons.

[00:31:31] Functions of that behavior, why the dog is doing what they're doing, how they can help their dog through those sorts of things, and also making a plan going forward so that they can get their dog feeling a lot more comfortable with pain relief and possibly anti anxiety meds, depending on the animal.

[00:31:49] Also, senility is a really big one that I would like to do more of. There's a lot of see now dogs that are struggling to sleep that are losing their cognitive abilities and their. [00:32:00] Drugs techniques, ways that we can actually help them cope with those, those things, both owners and the dogs themselves is this senility problem.

[00:32:14] Something that has manifested because animal companion animals are living longer because science allows them to live longer. Or has it always been there? So it's, it's it's canine cognitive disorder and it is essentially the same process in the brain as outsiders. So yeah, I would say as our dogs live in longer, we're going to see more of it.

[00:32:38] And what say a symptom of that I've had owners tell me that their dog is getting up in the middle of the night and then wandering around, outside, not wanting to go to the toilet or toileting inside or going to the door and asking to be let out. But they're actually at the wrong side of the. And they've always gone to the right side of the door or the dogs wandering around and.[00:33:00] 

[00:33:00] As hearing seems to be. Okay. But it's forgotten the cues to recall, or it's gotten its name. Yeah. Things like cues in general is quite a big one. So they lose the cues that they're used to responding to really quickly like, oh my dog doesn't sit anymore. I don't understand. Why has he forgotten how to do it?

[00:33:20] Well, essentially, yes he has. And that's one of the techniques is actually doing, going back to essentially puppy training, those things that they did know. So you can strengthen those brain sign-ups, I've got the really geeky way of calling it. Long-term potentiation reconnect those nerve endings so that they start using them again.

[00:33:41] The neural pathway in the synopsis. Is that what. Re attaching those signs, lapses and neural pathways. They have back to understanding those things again. Is it possible to, so you've got, say a senile dog, [00:34:00] all hope isn't lost, provided that you are on the same. I think that is a, is a terminal diagnosis, but it is something that we can definitely lengthen their life and quality of life by helping want to own a staff, not understanding it was a really big one management so that they, their life becomes easier and also they're safe.

[00:34:31] And then also the. There queues and the usual brain use again so that they are feeling a little bit more normal. Is it stressful for the dog having worked with people with outsiders? They found a very distressing I, yeah. And actually, yes, that is true. Saying that the dogs are more likely to show anxious society and [00:35:00] anxious issues.

[00:35:01] Um, with cognitive behavior disorder. Are your treatments one-to-one or do you do classes cool. One-to-one at the moment because I'm mostly dealing with sort of severe behavioral disorders or I'm doing one-on-one coaching. So I'm doing some training, which has been really rewarding and has been very, yeah, it's been just rewarding.

[00:35:27] I should just leave it at that. I am looking at doing some webinars because I'm really passionate about education. And I think a lot of vets would be really interested and benefit from more CPD as always. So I'm going to be doing that over the next couple of months. And I'm sort of thinking about doing online training courses as well.

[00:35:50] I. I'm a little sort of worried that with the severe behavior things that a little bit of knowledge isn't [00:36:00] enough and that they need a bespoke plan. So those behavioral consultations will continue to be one-on-one. Yeah. So tell me about your business because you've, you've launched it this year. So 20, 21, as we're recording this, tell me a little bit about that.

[00:36:18] Yeah. So veterinary behavior services and Zed is my business. I'm based in the Waikato and I'm mobile, which is great for behavior consultations and training. Cause I go to the animal's home, get to see them in a normal environment, get to see how the setup is and help owners specifically bespoke their plans for their animals.

[00:36:40] Yeah, it's just me one man band at the moment, but I do hope at some point that out, uh, possibly a trainer on board or even several vets and spread out a little over New Zealand. That's a big plan anyway. And how far in the Waikato do you travel? I'm covering the whole of the Waikato and I'm also occasionally going over [00:37:00] to the bay of plenty Taronga.

[00:37:01] And also once lockdown is finished, I'm hoping to get back. I had some clients in Auckland that I was going to go and see. And your email address. Is lucy@fitbehavior.co. And I will put a link to this on the show notes page for people to, to contact you direct as well. Can a consult save an animal from euthanasia?

[00:37:29] I really hope so. I. Like many vets have had to use an nice that young dog with fair aggression. And I hope. If the animal had come to me now, I would have been able to help those owners and the animal. I get cases of aggression where they've done a, a level one or two bites and even level three bites, essentially.

[00:37:59] So that's [00:38:00] including punctures blood that with management, um, Training and behavior modification. And I put those in two separate categories there. Those dogs can live a long and happy life. Yeah, I really hope so. How many treatments would that take? That really depends on the case and the owners. I've got a reactive dog that I did.

[00:38:26] One in-person case consultation with and the, my follow-ups have been fine. Zoom I've been working with them for I've now got over a hundred days worth of data. They've sent me, which is wonderful. So that's about that's over 300. So we've done. This would be the third followup that I've been to because we'd done a monthly follow-up consult that dog's doing well enough to be a pet dog.

[00:38:57] She says she would like dog to do [00:39:00] agility. So we're still going to keep working. And that's fabulous. I'm really enjoying working with that client. She's a really committed little, yeah. Happy lapdogs that gets super aggressive. It's not the breed. Is it? There's definitely a genetic component to behavior.

[00:39:19] And we can't forget that. However, a lot of small dogs that become aggressive are one, the small dogs, and it is, it's scary being in a world of giants and also go because often they're early signs of aggression aren't seen as aggression and they S like their aggression to be heard. They may well not be that comfortable about being picked up.

[00:39:46] And they're also sometimes very conflicted. I really want to be picked up because there's something on the floor that's quite scary. But also when I'm up in your arms, I really don't want to be touched. And I'm also highly anxious. Cause if that thing that was on the floor that you picked me up from, so [00:40:00] there's conflicting behaviors in there and they climb up the ladder of aggression very quickly.

[00:40:07] Julie South: How could a clinic work with. And what would be, would it be advantageous if they do. 

[00:40:16] Lucy Scott: Yes, there's something I'm really passionate about as I was talking about those sort of all those animals that I see in the vet clinic that are often fearful or anxious and how with dealing day-to-day with aggressive animals.

[00:40:30] So something I'm quite passionate about is setting up the vet clinic so that they're at least stressful, especially things like cats. They like being up high. They like being covered the. We benefit from a sniff of fairly way and keeping them away from dogs, if we really is kind of key. And then how once and the consultation, how we handle those animals to prevent them from feeling worried and skated.

[00:40:56] Because of course, then we can get escalation of aggression [00:41:00] in cats, low stress, but both cats and dogs actually low stress handling techniques are really about. And especially with dogs, how we can set them up so that we can even give the medications before they get to the vet clinic so that they are less stressed when they get them dogs.

[00:41:19] I do a lot of what we call cooperative care training, which is actually setting them up so that they are comfortable with all of the, uh, handling and behaviors that they need for us to be able to treat them appropriate. I've got a client whose dog couldn't be touched too in the vet clinic. And we set the dog up one to put her in muscle, which is quite useful.

[00:41:43] And then also we're building up in, they're building up. I shouldn't say we they're doing all the work. They're building up. To see the dog to be comfortable with body handling at home, out in the park and then in the vet clinic and then with strangers as well, [00:42:00] because to the dog, those aren't the same things.

[00:42:02] Those are all very, like those steps that they need to do and to work on before they're comfortable with strangers in the vet clinic and their big goal is to get the stock's. And they working on it and they'll get there very soon. I'm sure of it. The dog was absolutely terrified of me when I first turned up and it's now quite excited to see me because I'm also the lady with the treats, but how we can set up our clients.

[00:42:28] Like, yes, our consultation is maybe 15 minutes. And in that 15 minutes, I need to get that dog physical exams, Greg, some history, give them some medications and that was a door. But giving the vets techniques to make that less stressful for the animal, and then also giving the client some techniques to work on at home.

[00:42:50] So that in the future, that visit is a lot less stressful. 

[00:42:55] Julie South: It would be really valuable, uh, listening to this [00:43:00] would what, talk to their lead Viet or talk to you too, for the lead vet to talk to you or the practice manager, or how, how would it work? 

[00:43:09] Lucy Scott: I would talk to anybody that reaches out to me. I'd like to talk about all those things, low stress handling and cooperative care techniques to any vet that reaches out.

[00:43:19] If there is a lead vet and the vet clinic wants me to come and talk to the vet clinic and there would be really enjoyed that. And then also I'm hoping to do some webinars and get some of those outfits soon in the next few. 

[00:43:33] Julie South: I hope you enjoyed that as always opposite references that Lucy made on the episode page at paws claws with noses dot F M.

[00:43:42] This is episode 48, as Lucy said, she's always happy to chat and visit clinics. So the contact details she mentioned earlier, and I'll put them on. Post-close wet noses.fm page for you as well. If you're sitting on the fence, I was [00:44:00] talking with a lead vet the other day, who said that Lucy has been into his clinic and he's enjoying the value that she's been able to add through educating his team.

[00:44:09] And I know that she would love to be able to help your team if she gets. Again, please remember the invitation I extended at the beginning of this episode to sign my petition for MBA to allocate just two MIQ spaces each week for the vets that immigration New Zealand approves. Thank you for that as always.

[00:44:29] Thank you again for sharing the last 40, 45 minutes or so of your life with me. I really truly. Do Dooley. I really truly do appreciate it. I'm always up for feedback of all sorts. And also if you've got a topic you'd like me to cover in, please let me know if you'd like me to add a regular segment again.

[00:44:53] Please let me. Thanks. And if you haven't done so yet, click that follow button wherever you [00:45:00] listen to your favorite podcasts, it's free, which means it doesn't cost a cent and means that you'll never miss out on an episode as your podcast channel of choice, we'll deliver it straight into your podcast feed.

[00:45:15] This is Julie south signing off Kia. Khaki, Deanna, take care and God bless. Pause claws and wet noses is sponsored by vet staff. If you've never heard of it, staff it's new, Zealand's only full service recruitment agency. 100% dedicated to the veterinary sector fit staff has been around since 2015 and works nationwide from Kate Wrangler to the bluff and everywhere in between as well as helping Kiwis.

[00:45:48] Also helps overseas, qualified veterinarians find work and Arturo and New Zealand fit. staff.co dot. Indeed.[00:46:00] .